Gagan said:

lol struggled with what its basic binary shit? I expect when I am behind the guy, and my cursor is dead on their back (center of spine), and I press the throw knife button to actually knife him in the back. Not go off to the side or hit his shoulder so he can alert every mother fucker in the room. That is a tedious design of the game, not glorious Gagan the player. Your bum ass been big shillin games that play like straight garbage, while I, wonderful lovable wholesome Gagan only big shill games that are fun to play.

I never had such problems, so I can only conclude that you are indeed admitting to struggling with basic binary shit. I'm sorry you're so bad, but that's on you.

Oh my god i actually read what you wrote this time instead of just looking at the games you put


"Metro 2033, played on ranger hardcore, is the greatest stealth game ever made (MGSV may be a better action game, but neither Splinter Cell nor Metal Gear Solid ever reached the heights of the Metro series’ stealth). "


ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND?!?! That is your worst take this century.

Foolz said:

I didn't, though? Citation needed; maybe I've just forgotten. It's possible. The save system was inconsistent and horrendous, though.

I don't have any problem with someone picking MGS or Splinter Cell over it, but I can't take your opinion on it seriously when your mechanics complaints at the time boiled down to you sucking at the game. Congrats on beating it, though. I'm so proud of you!

Those aren't my only mechanics complaints, and incessently putzing with "hur durr you said this thing once" is a lazy as shit counter point. MGS, Splinter Cell, Hitman, Thief all have more tools for the player to mess with and AI actually have a range of responses and more than two states. Metro is they either don't see you (blind), or everyone saw you (alert). Their basic search n find you pathing isn't all that complex, and few if any of its arenas give you room to sauce with sneak-em up shenanigans. MGS n Hitman also are more enjoyable to play when alerted for their spontaneity, with Thief n Splinter Cell having some of the best spaces for pure ghosting. There is a reason those games actually have high level play, where as high level stealth play of Metro is basically non fucking existent.



And aint none of your steam convos going to show me actually 'struggling" with the game, considering never in my history did I call the game cheap, artificially difficult, or a any number of usual terms one would deploy if they were struggling with the game and blaming it on the game. I said it has inconsistent mechanics (which it does), and nothing feels good to particularly do. Which NEWSFLASH: Nothing in that game is fun to do.

Either way you slice it, calling it "the best stealth game ever made" is a buffoons take. Trying to pin a "hur durr you suck' meme on me to apologize for your game also loses value when I've definitely beaten games much harder and play games far more complex than bum ass Metro. Aint even name dropped the piece of shit when i bad mouthed your list, the rest of them games bad to. One of the them is a dumb ass tell tale jaborni non game like life is strange, the other one is papers pls also not a game, hard reset as in I need to hard reset my fucking computer to erase the memory of this boring ass game, deadly premonition which I like Francis York Morgan but, there is a playing it part connected to that shit barrel, and then some non journey but journey replacement game which....... i mean come on, we're calling screen savers gamers now? Is that what we're doing.

If there isn't one fighting game in this top 10 you kiwi fuck your list is invalid. You know what, I just remembered didn't your bum ass give Tomb Raider the reboot and Uncharted 2 an 8/10? The two of them? Exactly, hold that.

Foolz said:

More tools=/=good tools. One alert stage makes for some crazier scenarios. Simplicity can actually result in more complex things playing out. So? Just cause other people put their time and effort into other games is irrelevent. A lot of people play fucking NFL, a sport where you throw and catch a ball, and simpletons think that takes skill lol. Congrats, but I'm not going to base my opinion on what other people do.

The mechanics aren't inconsistent, you're inconsistent at using them (i.e. you suck). But you've beaten harder games, so good for you, man! Keep up the good work.

We both hold the 2 L, but  you were even defending things about 3 lol. Nice try, though.

Fighting games? Meh. Are there any racing sims on your list, or is your videogame purism actually just one massive pretension? Even fucking simcades are deeper than technical fighting games lol.

Goes without saying they are good tools to boot. One alert state is not always crazier and not condusive to a deeper stealth game. In the case of Metro you have less complex results than any proper stealth game, the dismissal of high level play is ridiculous. In the grand scheme of things there is not likely going to be a deep game with no one able to stress how good the systems can be, and in the case of Metro it isn't exactly some forgotten niche title. It's a reasonably well known one in FPS n gaming circles. And the NFL's game is plenty skillfful, but I know you're just memeing so that's okay. So while the broad takes have merit, they don't exactly apply to Metro's position as a stealth game.

But they are inconsistent. You the player aren't always the inaccurate one, the game will rng it to make you miss the validate a certain mechanic. IE an inconsistency. This is not a me opinion, this is a measurable and proven thing about how the original game works, and one that its sequel changes (some argue it makes 'teh experience" worse for it). If I am able to conquer the game with little to no pushback from the game, which I did, then me sucking is still me mopping the floor with that game. I understand that kiwi's are sensitive about their really bad top 10 lists, but dunking on your pal Gagan is not the answer.

I never defended 3, I'm pretty documented hater of half (or actually 2.5/4?) the uncharted mate, that's your boy Phil Fogg or Vader who apologize for UC3. And no, actually I never gave them an 8. An EIGHT? ick. My offensive 8, is Wolfenstein: The New Order, which while bad, is still not as bad as Uncharted 2 n Tomb Raider 2013, so I feel okay and I as human being forgive myself.

No, that means whatever genius recognizes to put simcades on their own top 10 with fighting games, a rts, and probably a moba will make a better top 10 than I, but it aint no genre to bail your shit out. Simcades however are not deeper than technical fighting games, I understand that huffing spraypaint and mashing buttons is the extent of your fighting game play sessions, but as someone who has made the effort to play yawnfests Snorza and Gran Boreismo that take doesn't really hold. I-racing type sims sure, more interesting variables, and the competitive side of things is more robust. But the console racers while feature rich are a bit lacking once you bother to learn how to drive them things even on a pad. While that part is skillful enough, the actual on track racing in those games is leaves plenty to be desired (namely shit they should be stealing from Iracing) not the least of which is how you have to normalize the vehicles to make an engaging race happen.



The actual player to player nature of a fighting game has more of a moving needle of rps options playing through out from neutral to corner to oki to air to airs, to metered options, etc. People who don't play them, think the depth is the combos, and while the combos are important, they aren't what makes fighting games the best thing the medium has to offer this side of Starcraft.

I've is an anecdote. Skipping that


What highs? you play a bad shooter when they spot you, if anything that's a constant across all these games, except MGS I guess because you have a healthy amount of tools in that situation as well.


Not really the difference between the other games actually having a higher level of play is that there is actually something to shoot for n get better at besides in game scoring systems n the like. As in more fun to extract from the game, not really the case with Metro. My position is plenty reasonable, human beings however aren't, not everyone plays games for depth, or fun for that matter. Plenty of them play to simply eat shit, that's why people love Ocarina of Time. But while we're at it Chess n Go are fantastic games, wtf lol. Having ways to manipulate the AI or a diverse range of challenges to sneak around in is the part where these games get most of their satisfaction, and in those areas metro is slacking, so again I'm not being unreasonable, you just keep trying to justify a dumb ass sentence you wrote. Tricks n shenanigans that give you more to mess with on subsequent playthroughs are funnerer. That is value of a deeper set of system should you choose to engage with them, is that the game still has new shit or concepts for you to mess with, even when the challenge end of the spectrum has long lost its appeal.

GT without the training wheels is fun, I don't think the argument that it's deeper than fighting games would fly, I don't think it's as deep as the best fighting games would fly. Some of the more popular present day fighting games maybe. Part of the issue of a race is that a lot of it is hitting your marks on the track, the lap itself has to be pristine hitting your mark, and said timing doesn't change nearly as harshly as tires wear. They become more like at medium wear you move your line a bit here, and at harsher wear you move of the throttle a bit more here. The part against other players is more limiting. Because in the lead you're just out front running your marks, on road courses you just aren't going to be lapping the field unless you're doing endurance races, and those don't exactly get burn online. As the chaser, ehwhen you get to the driver there is some engagement to how you are going to size them up n pass, but still not the player to player interaction of a fighting game. It's something I-racing has a lot more going on with. On oval races you have moving grooves through out the race with lanes changing depending on the track so some turns you go inside, while other turns you are going middle of the turn if not up against the high line, and this gradually changes over the course of the race. With also needs to tweak spring rubbers n such in the race. The tuning part is a neat element, but it's too much of a pregame thing in most racing games, more like a loadout. More varied......varied? varied is probably the wrong word, but it has more of an appeal than what FPS loadouts are which is cancer, but on track in a lot of these in a player to player it's whatever, especially in simcades because optimal set ups are a ting. in Iracing setups aren't nearly as optimized, and road courses on top of the moving grooves, have more constant adapting to the tire wear, you can't just muscle people out of the way without doing serious damage to the car, drafts are more fun than just get behind car suck up air, pass car. All sorts of smaller mechanics that aren't all that developed in simcades because all the sim is in the tuning and stability of the car.

Knife throw also has some rng, at the least in the version I played because unlike you I played that game when it came out. Not the year last Light came out. Its a glorified afterthought fam, as bum as the ammo is, might as well conserve it for a real premium gun, get that that, and rock house with bum ammo, because most enemies die in one hit, there is an ample amount of ammo, especially from goobers, and the goobers themselves can be taken out or entirely skipped. All it really does is stop you from being overly guns blazing, and I don't think the game is inherently all that compelling to play as a more slowed down sneaking game.

Nope grandpa, once again that's your bois. You seem to fucking replace "someone said one thing" they must clearly mean "this entire ass conclusion". What you're thinking of is the turbo button cover shooter vid, where he highlights that one of the few creative uses of cover shooting (his words, not mine) was the pirate ship where you are hanging on the side of the ship and need to shoot at people above you. Which you had to be anal about the word "creative" and I said, eh I don't have a problem with a use of the word, because in the grand scheme of tings in that game that's probably one of the better uses of how that games systems work. But I don't like the walking in that game, I said the shooting is worse since day one, I said the multiplayer was made worse since day one, I've never liked the climbing n puzzle solving in those games. Only difference between now and then. IS that back then I was willing to take one for the team and accept em as a pacing mechanism. Now I see them for what they are, shit, just shit people accepted because it's not straight busted like a bad vehicle segment, but like a bad vehicle segment still shit.

"In my anecdotal tough guy scenario I beat other kiwis in fighting games once, on the PS2", great, do me a solid play me in Guilty Gear and we'll see how that goes. I'm fine with considering myself bad at fighting games, at most games. Unless you're playing games at actaul high level, you probably aren't that good at the game. Closer to what is being average at the game, albeit given the nature of actual average video game players, I'm well above average at most games I bother to play more than once. You're overly concerned with a player skill ting, because if we wanted to go down that route, aint no one should be talking. My way of bringing of fighting games, is much like I have always done tomas when I name dropped Bayonetta, Braid, Stalker, Wonderful 101, Devil May Cry, and that is to save you from the shit games you play, to play the best games, The Gagan Games.


I mean fuck off with this list, at least the regular game under top 10 being bad was dumb "well impact" reasons, even if some of the picks were undeserving of that status. Metro? one of the 10 best games of the decade? as a FPS? That decade had a Stalker game, I thought you were united in our take that Metro is Stalker for children. Life is Strange is come on..........are we really doing this, adventure games again? Don't you have like real adventure games you liked? Wasn't there a fucking Deponia game or some shit. At least it has actual puzzles for more than one chapter. Deadly Premonition should either be 1st or not on the list. You pretentious poser. Paper's Please, was Bejeweled 3 not an option? didn't play that game company game, didn't even know they made another game. Hard Reset? over Doom 4? I'm not even a Doom 4 guy, but come on, over Doom?

Also play Baba is You you slob. It has user-generated levels as well, it's pretty cool. It's like the best block pushing puzzle game ever, even tho it's not really block pushing, but sort of kind of.

Foolz said:

Are you saying you think I said chess is inferior to videogames? I'm confused.

Again, the very fact that it is more limited than those other games is what results in greater room for improvisation and requires better planning.

High level GT play is about lap times, not racing. Although GT Sport's racing is okay, but it still doesn't compare to any of the sims. It's about mastery, not player-player interaction, but when you're talking about racing, time attack is just as deep as racing is. It also actually best represents the best drivers/players most consistently, too.

All I'm saying is, I never missed a knife throw when I was actually aiming at an enemy. Maybe they changed it at some point in 2033 as well?

If you're willing to accept someone calling something in Uncharted creative, that's the most heinous possible defence of anything in Uncharted ever, even it's second-hand.

You presented a not-even-anecdotal tough guy scenario and now you're mad about it me responding to it, lol? Your technique is bad, I only played Braid cause of you, and it was alright, but nothing special. The other games I played of my own accord. Guilty Gear is cool.

You invent an entire critical scheme for how to judge games which boils down to the importance of complexity and depth, and yet you shill for StarCraft and fighting games; plus you have a Picasso sig. I don't think it's unfair to entertain the idea that you might be little bit pretensious.

Nah, I don't know about that one chief. The fact that it is limited just translates into less things to do and less planning required. Ghosting an area is more simplistic as a result. Dishonored similarly I've made this complaint that murdering mother fuckers is fun in that game because you have all these tools, but people miss the forest for the trees with why the stealth is bad. They thought because the tools had less appeal in stealth, but that's not the case all the tools had merit in stealth, even the murder ones (killing people without being spotted is still stealth, Hitman isn't less of a stealth title because you don't play as some pussy ass pacifist). But the tools themselves are limited or one dimensional in the responses they have from the AI, and the AI's spotting n phases create for a lot of uninteresting dead air. So even if you didn't want to just hop scotch n blink your way with no impunity, playing with your food in the sneaking isn't as compelling either. It exacerbates a problem which is the stealth gameplay is shallow.


Metro 2033 is that n then some. Even if you had limited it to the decade it would have been a sus take because Hitman 2016 and Hitman 2 are fucking fantastic enough that I completely ignore that I hate the rest of the series besides Blood Money lol.


As for the change? Maybe, I'm seeing that stuff is tweaked in 2033 to be more like Last Light, from my understanding the game had heavy tweaks from vanilla launch to before last light came out.

I don't think he used that term poorly in that scenario, and given how much grief it brought you I think nothing quiet captures how wack cover shooters are than how he used that term now is it?

What tough guy scenario? I said there better be a fighting game on that top 10, after non-game ass life is strange got there.


"nothing special"......you gave that shit a 9, you gave a whole solilquy on why the game is great n everything, unlike you my receipt is in audio form sir, I believe on Smugcast 1 you were pretty high on that game. Thank you very much.


The other games you did not play on your own according you lying sack of shit. Literally had to badger you for ages to play them games. My technique has been godlike, but that's okay.

That isn't that far off from how I always was "gameplay first, everything else second". I just have a more defined take on how I want to converse gameplay from a nuts n bolts standpoint, and not just exclusively on why it feels good. Sometimes it requires me to accept a bitter pill, like damn, maybe playing Silent Hill 2 does in fact kind of suck lol. Fighting games are the bees knees, and I've also been playing them. Not understanding the Starcraft knock. Game is pretty legit, as far as multiplayer games are concerned be hard pressed to think of many where the wins are satisfying to get as in Starcraft 2 n Broodwar. The error in your take is that I came in acting like MLG Pro Gagsxxx420. I did no such thing. I innocent, honest, hard working, totally fair, wholesome, and reasonable gagan came in and said "imagine if you had good games on your list"

That's condescending, not tough guy. Different. YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU on the other hand been all about the you're bad, git gud, i once beat someone in a ps2 fighting game in new zealand doing jumping jacks, the whole 9 yards. Like I didn't make Deadly Premonition bad, sweary did.

Can't comment on Dishonored, but this is where we disagree. The greater limits resulted in a much higher degree of execution required, and in a few cases more planning. I did a fair bit of experimentation in MGS2/3/5, and a little ghosting in Splinter Cell, and the margin of error was too great for it to be as interesting Metro (though in the case of 5, the total freedom it offered made up for it; and even though the game wasn't really that much about stealth, the massive size of some of the areas made complete stealth runs through them tremendously satisfying), but there was certainly much more room for creativity, too; so I'm fine with anyone picking any of the games you mention over Metro. But I'm fine with anyone picking Metro, too; it just offers something based on different principles, which many people aren't going to appreciate, and that's fine. Also, again, I'm not saying I was some super MGS and Splinter Cell player lol, just that I did go to the effort of trying to do some interesting stuff in them, so my comparison is not out of ignorance.

Correlation=/=causation. If you badger someone to play something for several years and they don't play it, then they do several years later when you're still badgering them in exactly the same way, it would actually suggest what you were doing had little effect. But I appreciate that you're doing it out of love, and in the case of Braid, unlike all the other games you mention, I probably would not have played it if not for you. So you do have one success, but the rest is stolen valour! In any case, thanks for looking out for me. <3

But I also gave Uncharted 2 an 8/10, so Braid is only 1 point better than Uncharted 2, ergo it's not even meh, it straight up sucks!

Eh, it was in response to this: ";">I understand that huffing spraypaint and mashing buttons is the extent of your fighting game play sessions" which is barking up the wrong tree. I don't seriously claim to be good, merely that it's silly to suggest I don't have extensive experience with fighting games beyond button mashing lol.

Smugcast 3 not being the DMC3 podcast is Aarny's fault, not either of ours. What should be the canditate for the next smugcast? DMC 4, 5, Bayonetta, Nier something completely different?

Well if nothing else has come out of this discussion (which I thought was quite interesting myself), then at least we managed to break the quote function between us!

Those are some Foolz gems right there.

Yonic, yes that was the word that has been eluding me for what must be over a decade now. before I forget, there is an anthropological term for the situation where a culture is abusively dominated by another culture and then when the ruling culture is in some way removed the cultuer that had been victimised then plays out the same behaviour to a new under-class.  I've looked and looked and cannot find the name for it.

lol.