Dvader said:That's all great if all you are looking for is one kind of game and again you are looking at this from just some Uber action game lens. Not every game is about super twitch reflex action, it doesn't need to be. A game where it is designed for slower paced more realistic gun fighting can make for something as thrilling as doom. The possibilities of control with VR is greater than with a mouse and KB, simple things like being able to free aiming and vision can change how combat is designed. I can shoot two guns in two different direction no looking both of them, something only achievable with some lock on system in traditional gaming. Things like being able to physically peak over a corner is so much more effective than having a lean button. Being able to just take your virtual gun and reach over the corner and blind fire is realistic in a way having a blind fire action (where you are still generally aiming) is not. Just wait till physics come more into play as these games get more sophisticated, games where you can invent any kind of cover, any kind of makeshift shield, any kind of diversion by just using your hands and objects in the world any way you want. It's a level of freedom that never be possible with traditional controls. HL could be the start of that, let's see.
Your go to reaction of "you must look at games as this one thing" is not englightened, it's patronizing. I look at it from the lense of games still come down to a series of interesting decisions in a given possibility space. VR by nature limits the possibility space, not expands it.
VR does not improve the controls for FPS, because right out the gate it gimps movement. And not high level bunny hop or skiing, or any of that fun shit, but basic walking from one end of a hall way to another. It doesn't offer anything to aiming that wasn't there already.
Being able to physically lean adds nothing that a lean button doesn't already provide you, which is keeping you relatively safe behind cover, but giving you more of a view but still putting you in harm's way. There is a reason certain movements aren't allowed in certain spaces in traditional shooters. For any one cool physical addition VR could add, there are tons of smaller things compromised.
And my larger point is that I'm not accepting of something just because it's different, if the end result is to continue to take a genre that used to be much much much much much better, and make it worse.
I'm not waiting for pie in the sky Quest World, I'm judging this exactly on what I have seen, and what I've seen is a bunch of limited tech where interactions are being further simplified, not improved. Which is a downgrade.
And of all the genres to act like isn't a twitch reflex action thing, shooters by nature are that. More than most genres.
Edit: I don't see a reply function anymore. I had to quote you and use the editor toggle to reply. Same issue in other threads.
Holy shit, there's someone else who thinks Episode 2 is less crap than the rest of Half-Life 2!
Foolz said:Holy shit, there's someone else who thinks Episode 2 is less crap than the rest of Half-Life 2!
Stick to the thing the game is good (decent?) at and build around that, make sure the change of pace stuff still use the core systems. The biggest problem with a good chunk of Half Life 2 is that you spend a whole lot of time getting tutorialized, and no amount of "valve, the masters of doing tutorials without making you feel like it" nonsense is going to make that feel less lame.
There are definitely worse action games of the last 2 decades than Half Life 2 tho, but fuck that game. It's not that bad, but fuck that game.
Gagan said:Foolz said:Holy shit, there's someone else who thinks Episode 2 is less crap than the rest of Half-Life 2!
Stick to the thing the game is good (decent?) at and build around that, make sure the change of pace stuff still use the core systems. The biggest problem with a good chunk of Half Life 2 is that you spend a whole lot of time getting tutorialized, and no amount of "valve, the masters of doing tutorials without making you feel like it" nonsense is going to make that feel less lame.
There are definitely worse action games of the last 2 decades than Half Life 2 tho, but fuck that game. It's not that bad, but fuck that game.
Solidarity, comrade!
Gagan have you played a VR game? if not then you are just spewing all the same nonsense non VR players say. You can move exactly as you do in any FPS, I can play doom in VR... the movement is the SAME. But guess what, my eyes are not restricted in front of me. My hands are not restricted to one center dot on the screen. I can look a different way and aim at TWO different points without looking, something that is impossible without some kind of cheap lock on in traditional controls. And you saying peaking over a corner with some button is the same as you physically doing the action makes me kind of certain you never played a VR. The visceral feeling of YOU being the controller is something incredible. Now if that is not what you want, if you just want your KB and mouse quick aiming and are fine with that ok. But if you do want to try new experiences, games that will try new things and yes it's still in its infancy so they do have work to do, then VR is where the interesting ideas are happening.
>Played VR
Yes, Superhot VR, Doom VR, Firewall Zero, Tetris Effect, Robo Recall, Boneworks
>Move exactly as you do in any FPS, Doom VR
Bitch are you insane? Did you play Doom VR? That game is teleporting n dashing, it takes all the micro movements out of the equation. The movement is not the same, matter of fact add to it let me some some Tribes movement or Quake movement done in that shit, because I'm not beholden to baby fps games like you consolites.
>aim restricted to dot on the screen
....lol that's a restriction when you're playing on a pad, on a mouse, that's just aiming.
>Visceral feeling
Feel while important, is not the only thing when it comes to gameplay. The end result is still the same, you have part of your body behind cover, and you can lean across a corner to get a shot off, it's not an added decision, it's not even an interesting one.
You are easily impressed by parlor tricks, and that's fine. I however while being capable of appreciating new things, do not lower my standards just because something is new. I value substance first, I value depth. Which is an area VR is regressing from compared to gamepad shooters, which already are worse than ones built for a mouse n keyboard.
You haven't play a game with full locomotion in VR have you? Doom the OG doom, I played that in VR. You can play serious Sam in VR. You can play basically any FPS in VR with NORMAL movements. Will you get sick, probably especially games not optimized. I'm good cause I seem to not get sick but it's definitely an issue that will be corrrected as the medium evolves.
not sure what you are doing ignoring the aiming. Regular aiming is LIMITED. You have to shoot at what you are looking at, that is mouse aiming. How can you play robo recall and super hot VR and not see the benefit of complete freedom to aim TWO indenpendant weapons at any point without even looking. On super hot you can no look shoot a guy on your left, while punching a guy on your right. Stuff IMPOSSIBLE with normal controls.
Is the nausea caused by freeform movement in FPSs the same as in, say, a racing sim?
smh
>OG Doom
That game has doesn't have free look mouse, and all its aiming is done on a grid. It's as basic movement as you can get, and no one who actually has played PC FPS is going to be pumping out a soliloquy on the rich movement systems of Serious Sam (because there fucking aren't any). Worse what does VR add to those games? because I didn't list Mirror's Edge on Oculus for exactly that reason, it has head tracking n shit, but who fucking cares? At the end of the day the game itself plays exactly the same as it does on a mouse n keyboard, except now you have the screen on your face, with some head tracking which in that games case adds fuck all.
I didn't knock the idea that you can aim two weapons independently, that's one neat thing VR can do, but I'm also not gona throw all the other good things about a FPS just for one rule of cool thing. Superhot in VR takes a game that already has simplified movement because it's "time slows down while you aren't moving" set up, only to make it even more stationary and limited than it was in vanilla superhot. Which gets exposed when you try to do any of the challenge run stuff that is besides the main game, which are actually fun to do in vanilla superhot.
Now flip this argument imagine doing anything like skiing in this shit or bunny hoping, or quarter turns, or any of the richer movement options in much better FPS games, or playing with the level of precision n speed of the best multiplayer (shit I shouldn't even quality it, multiplayer is where the vast majority of the best FPS games have always been) ever made to bum ass motion controls, and hey you got head tracking. 1 or 2 unique options isn't going to make up for all the other stuff lost in translation.
So back to your original post to me, you aint getting better controls slick. "mah real life soldiers" aint gonna change how watered down the games are and will be.
Gagan said:smh
>OG Doom
That game has doesn't have free look mouse, and all its aiming is done on a grid. It's as basic movement as you can get, and no one who actually has played PC FPS is going to be pumping out a soliloquy on the rich movement systems of Serious Sam (because there fucking aren't any). Worse what does VR add to those games? because I didn't list Mirror's Edge on Oculus for exactly that reason, it has head tracking n shit, but who fucking cares? At the end of the day the game itself plays exactly the same as it does on a mouse n keyboard, except now you have the screen on your face, with some head tracking which in that games case adds fuck all.I didn't knock the idea that you can aim two weapons independently, that's one neat thing VR can do, but I'm also not gona throw all the other good things about a FPS just for one rule of cool thing. Superhot in VR takes a game that already has simplified movement because it's "time slows down while you aren't moving" set up, only to make it even more stationary and limited than it was in vanilla superhot. Which gets exposed when you try to do any of the challenge run stuff that is besides the main game, which are actually fun to do in vanilla superhot.
Now flip this argument imagine doing anything like skiing in this shit or bunny hoping, or quarter turns, or any of the richer movement options in much better FPS games, or playing with the level of precision n speed of the best multiplayer (shit I shouldn't even quality it, multiplayer is where the vast majority of the best FPS games have always been) ever made to bum ass motion controls, and hey you got head tracking. 1 or 2 unique options isn't going to make up for all the other stuff lost in translation.
So back to your original post to me, you aint getting better controls slick. "mah real life soldiers" aint gonna change how watered down the games are and will be.
You are talking about a lot of stuff I never mentioned. I only brought up doom and such to say that you can play any game with classic movement in VR. There is no different except with what your head can handle. Most devs won't do it cause yes it makes people sick but ALL of it is possible. You can play CoD in VR, you can counter strike in VR. And as time goes on these motion options will get better, tech is not static.
As for multiplayer shooters, don't know about you but actually getting on the floor in a prone position to hide from other people using full body tracking is unlike anything in a standard game. Getting behind cover by kneeling and YOU peaking out, you poking the gun around the corner, it's visceral feeling. An actual combat sim, not just some action game. You want your twitch shooters you still have them, but they can never offer that.
Foolz said:Is the nausea caused by freeform movement in FPSs the same as in, say, a racing sim?
Yeah it's motion sickness. Far more potent though.
Foolz said:
No that's a mod. Doom VR is not like the standard doom, it's more a shooting gallery. Many of those games only let you teleport.
Dvader said:No that's a mod. Doom VR is not like the standard doom, it's more a shooting gallery. Many of those games only let you teleport.
My bad. I thought it was a mod for the VR version. But hey, then this is clearly what you should be playing instead of it lol.
That's all great if all you are looking for is one kind of game and again you are looking at this from just some Uber action game lens. Not every game is about super twitch reflex action, it doesn't need to be. A game where it is designed for slower paced more realistic gun fighting can make for something as thrilling as doom. The possibilities of control with VR is greater than with a mouse and KB, simple things like being able to free aiming and vision can change how combat is designed. I can shoot two guns in two different direction no looking both of them, something only achievable with some lock on system in traditional gaming. Things like being able to physically peak over a corner is so much more effective than having a lean button. Being able to just take your virtual gun and reach over the corner and blind fire is realistic in a way having a blind fire action (where you are still generally aiming) is not. Just wait till physics come more into play as these games get more sophisticated, games where you can invent any kind of cover, any kind of makeshift shield, any kind of diversion by just using your hands and objects in the world any way you want. It's a level of freedom that never be possible with traditional controls. HL could be the start of that, let's see.