Religion, Guilt and the Culture of Shame
Richard Dawkins. :X
Indoctrination is certainly wrong, but then again there's very few parents that will not force their own beliefs onto their children whether they are religious based or not, and if they don't then unless they are protected form society society will do the work for them.
Indoctrination is certainly wrong, but then again there's very few parents that will not force their own beliefs onto their children whether they are religious based or not, and if they don't then unless they are protected form society society will do the work for them.
"there's very few parents that will not force their own beliefs onto their children"
It depends on your use of "force" or what "very few" entails, but I think you're underestimating. For example, the estimated percentage of fundamentalist Christians in the United States is 25% (also note that's equal to George W. Bush's approval rating).
1.1 million students were homeschooled in 2003 in the United States, of which over 70% do so for religious reasons.
It depends on your use of "force" or what "very few" entails, but I think you're underestimating. For example, the estimated percentage of fundamentalist Christians in the United States is 25% (also note that's equal to George W. Bush's approval rating).
1.1 million students were homeschooled in 2003 in the United States, of which over 70% do so for religious reasons.
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Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobile
Freedom of Religion is for everybody except for our youngsters. Being raised in Holland and coming in contact with different religions fairly early, I quickly noticed people believing stuff, because their parents told them too.
Heck my parent are religeous too, but I did not break away because of honour and principle. I realized that their belief is illogical and after a while i realized that it is all irrelevant.
Heck my parent are religeous too, but I did not break away because of honour and principle. I realized that their belief is illogical and after a while i realized that it is all irrelevant.
My 8-year-old sister currently has the following thought process: "The Bible is true because it says it's true" (note: she's never even read the damn thing... the stuff just gets absorbed from the cherry-pickers she hears preach at my mom's church). I told her that if that's the reasoning behind believing the Bible, then anyone can write a book saying that it's true and people should believe it to the same extent as the Bible. She responded by saying that this would be ridiculous. EXACTLY!!! That's the whole fucking point!!!
I don't think she knows yet that the god she believes in is only one of many that people now believe in, and have believed in, that there are many versions of the Bible (meaning there really is no "the" Bible), and that there are many different holy books just like the Bible.
BTW, the above incident about the Bible's truth occurred when she wished to not get anymore shots and backed up said wish by stating that Jesus says to never doubt. I told her that if she never doubts then she'll never learn if she has something wrong. Begin her rationalization here.
Unfortunately, despite my dad being an atheist (one who is mostly apathetic about religion's current influence and who sees anything related to an atheist movement or atheist social networking through blogging, for example, as silly), I'm being encouraged to keep my atheism in the closet (just like him), with respect to my extended family, to keep the family together. I HATE staying silent (well, I'm mostly silent, but I'm responding to more crap now), because I don't want my sister believing a whole bunch of nonsense. It was bad enough that I was frustrated with just my own situation when she was still very young, but now I have to see her grow up being indoctrinated, and I'm currently too much of an anxious person to upset things. Plus, my paternal grandparents aren't doing too well, and I wonder if coming out of the closet would hasten the decline of their health, if not give them heart attacks outright.
My sister has been taught to believe in the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus. I desperately hope that when she learns the truth about these entities, she'll be open to doubting what she's been told about theism. But I'm not naive enough to hold my breath.
My paternal grandmother believes that STDs pop into existence when a person has had too many sexual partners, and my paternal grandfather only learned "the facts of life" (i.e. in-depth facts about sex and how it and procreation work) at age 79... two years ago.
For the record, I live in Kansas. I can has psychiatrist nao?
I don't think she knows yet that the god she believes in is only one of many that people now believe in, and have believed in, that there are many versions of the Bible (meaning there really is no "the" Bible), and that there are many different holy books just like the Bible.
BTW, the above incident about the Bible's truth occurred when she wished to not get anymore shots and backed up said wish by stating that Jesus says to never doubt. I told her that if she never doubts then she'll never learn if she has something wrong. Begin her rationalization here.
Unfortunately, despite my dad being an atheist (one who is mostly apathetic about religion's current influence and who sees anything related to an atheist movement or atheist social networking through blogging, for example, as silly), I'm being encouraged to keep my atheism in the closet (just like him), with respect to my extended family, to keep the family together. I HATE staying silent (well, I'm mostly silent, but I'm responding to more crap now), because I don't want my sister believing a whole bunch of nonsense. It was bad enough that I was frustrated with just my own situation when she was still very young, but now I have to see her grow up being indoctrinated, and I'm currently too much of an anxious person to upset things. Plus, my paternal grandparents aren't doing too well, and I wonder if coming out of the closet would hasten the decline of their health, if not give them heart attacks outright.
My sister has been taught to believe in the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, and Santa Claus. I desperately hope that when she learns the truth about these entities, she'll be open to doubting what she's been told about theism. But I'm not naive enough to hold my breath.
My paternal grandmother believes that STDs pop into existence when a person has had too many sexual partners, and my paternal grandfather only learned "the facts of life" (i.e. in-depth facts about sex and how it and procreation work) at age 79... two years ago.
For the record, I live in Kansas. I can has psychiatrist nao?
Oh wow, Kansas. Home of the Dover trials due to the unfortunate creationist infestation.
All things considered, the concept in general of groups of atheists is silly, for sure, but it only exists because of something sillier.
It's a touchy thing to actually bring up. What I would suggest is merely responding to anything imposed upon you, such as church or dinner prayer or whatever other rituals.
Myself not being in a religious house or have religious immediate family (who themselves I hardly see anyway), I don't really have to deal with it so much.
I think it's a fair assessment that the idea of "staying silent" is enabling to the problem. It's not recommended to just go up to Christians and point out you have a problem with their beliefs, but the fact that there's a child involved in this makes being a positive example of being open about it is a worthwhile venture.
I can't speak on your relationship with your family or their likely reactions, but I do doubt the physiological effects of your lack of belief.
It's not unlikely that the non-Christians and especially the non-religious will be made out to be these terrible people, so your mere existence is a conflict of conscience.
Something I think would be a good approach with your sister if you're confident in your knowledge of the material is to provide yourself as an unbiased source of Biblical knowledge. As it's said, the best argument against Christianity is the Bible itself.
For example, if she asks how do you get into heaven, you have to respond as an unbiased observer that if you go by the Bible, it depends on who you ask. Lutherans believe you get into heaven by faith alone, while Catholocism incurs conversion, forgiveness and absolution. Then there is of course Judaism which believes the Old Testament and not the New Testament.
You never need to give your own conclusions, only the basis for making an assessment, which she can then make. An example of this would be evidence of Jesus. The New Testament was written decades after the supposed events and compiled even later, while no contemporary historian mentions him. You don't have to actually say he didn't exist for someone to reach that conclusion themself.
And a natural extension of all that would be scientific questions that arise. Simply breeding curiosity on the subject is a huge positive.
I do hope the best of your situation, as best I can I understand the difficulties of merely living in that area as an atheist. Adults can deal with their beliefs, but child indoctrination I at least personally take serious issue with.
If someone has developed critical thinkings skills and still believes, all the best to them, but a child has had no such chance, so from my perspective, you're that chance.
Anyway, that's my over-extended take. Thanks for sharing, also, angry_beaver, I am interested in those kinds of stories, however disheartening they may be.
All things considered, the concept in general of groups of atheists is silly, for sure, but it only exists because of something sillier.
It's a touchy thing to actually bring up. What I would suggest is merely responding to anything imposed upon you, such as church or dinner prayer or whatever other rituals.
Myself not being in a religious house or have religious immediate family (who themselves I hardly see anyway), I don't really have to deal with it so much.
I think it's a fair assessment that the idea of "staying silent" is enabling to the problem. It's not recommended to just go up to Christians and point out you have a problem with their beliefs, but the fact that there's a child involved in this makes being a positive example of being open about it is a worthwhile venture.
I can't speak on your relationship with your family or their likely reactions, but I do doubt the physiological effects of your lack of belief.
It's not unlikely that the non-Christians and especially the non-religious will be made out to be these terrible people, so your mere existence is a conflict of conscience.
Something I think would be a good approach with your sister if you're confident in your knowledge of the material is to provide yourself as an unbiased source of Biblical knowledge. As it's said, the best argument against Christianity is the Bible itself.
For example, if she asks how do you get into heaven, you have to respond as an unbiased observer that if you go by the Bible, it depends on who you ask. Lutherans believe you get into heaven by faith alone, while Catholocism incurs conversion, forgiveness and absolution. Then there is of course Judaism which believes the Old Testament and not the New Testament.
You never need to give your own conclusions, only the basis for making an assessment, which she can then make. An example of this would be evidence of Jesus. The New Testament was written decades after the supposed events and compiled even later, while no contemporary historian mentions him. You don't have to actually say he didn't exist for someone to reach that conclusion themself.
And a natural extension of all that would be scientific questions that arise. Simply breeding curiosity on the subject is a huge positive.
I do hope the best of your situation, as best I can I understand the difficulties of merely living in that area as an atheist. Adults can deal with their beliefs, but child indoctrination I at least personally take serious issue with.
If someone has developed critical thinkings skills and still believes, all the best to them, but a child has had no such chance, so from my perspective, you're that chance.
Anyway, that's my over-extended take. Thanks for sharing, also, angry_beaver, I am interested in those kinds of stories, however disheartening they may be.
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Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileI haven't read any of my Bibles in a long time. The telling info I do get is online, and I'm not good with countering claims by providing counterclaims from the Bible. Maybe I should take a highlighter to its pages....
What I'm trying to say here is that I'm not a competent, unbiased reference. Indeed, since deconverting and having to keep myself mostly closeted for 5-6 years while seeing all that is said and done in the name of religion, I've developed a good deal of animosity toward the making of idiotic claims.
*sigh* I can counter theistic indoctrination in any way EXCEPT the way that is really needed wih a child. I'm a little bit too hot-headed on the subject to be really helpful.
Anyway, just to provide a little more context, I am on excellent terms with all the family members I've mentioned.
What I'm trying to say here is that I'm not a competent, unbiased reference. Indeed, since deconverting and having to keep myself mostly closeted for 5-6 years while seeing all that is said and done in the name of religion, I've developed a good deal of animosity toward the making of idiotic claims.
*sigh* I can counter theistic indoctrination in any way EXCEPT the way that is really needed wih a child. I'm a little bit too hot-headed on the subject to be really helpful.
Anyway, just to provide a little more context, I am on excellent terms with all the family members I've mentioned.
Oh, and Dover isn't in Kansas. It's in Pennsylvania. 
Ah, sorry, I'm mixing up my creationism-in-public-school debacles. Kansas was Kangaroo Court. Thanks for the correction.
Admittedly I've only read portions of the Bible and not straight through. An excellent (and entertaining) resource, though, is the Skeptics Annotated Bible.
It's times like these I keep trying to come up with some magic solution that makes everything perfect that unfortunately doesn't exist.
For lack of a better term, good luck with your continued situation.
Admittedly I've only read portions of the Bible and not straight through. An excellent (and entertaining) resource, though, is the Skeptics Annotated Bible.
It's times like these I keep trying to come up with some magic solution that makes everything perfect that unfortunately doesn't exist.
For lack of a better term, good luck with your continued situation.
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Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileWell Beaver I might be able to help a little bit. Something that was very important to my development was a live view class. Here I came into contact with Budhist, Atheist, Agnostic, Islamitic views.
Try to get your sister to do the same thing, so she is open to all these views. That will perhaps open her eyes.
Try to get your sister to do the same thing, so she is open to all these views. That will perhaps open her eyes.
Not sure what's actually feasible, but thanks for the advice, guys.
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aspro (3m)
I've lived in southern Ontario my entire life, and have never been outside of this 600km radius. Having been in one culture so entirely can make it very difficult to recognize and distinguish one's own cultural eccentricities and shortcomings from things that simply are accepted as what has to be or what is right.
North America in general is shaped by Christianity, whether or not you ascribe to those set of beliefs. As I stated in an earlier blog, the religious beliefs of those from before Canada was even founded shaped the funding of religious schools to this day--I didn't even really think about the fact that there were Catholic schools seriously until just a few months ago.
Understanding this, it then becomes clear when evalutating all aspects of living and growing up in Canada just how those values have shaped acceptance of what is proper behaviour.
The number one issue that throws the western principles for a loop is sexuality. Admitting any semblance of physical attraction is tantamount to treason. Any lustful desire must be draped in shame and suffocated. Regardless of the fact that I have no personal problem with sexual displays from a logical or moral standpoint, I still feel uncomfortable to this day with any movie/game/tv show that does.
When religion takes criticism, there will be many on both sides of the issue saying how we all need to respect personal beliefs and have constructive discourse. But the thing is that the personal beliefs here are not simply a matter of choosing what seems plausible. It's not a matter of what you personally feel. If you choose not to be religious, it is by doing so against the will of society; it takes extra effort because even here in Canada while there is much more religious tolerance, there's an equivocation of religion with being a proper citizen.
If you are someone who is in a relgious family, even worse. Combining the above ubiquitous sentiment of morality with a family who insists upon it makes resistance a rebellion an order of magnitude beyond underage drinking or a tattoo. To outright disregard what is held personally as what is right, required and a simple matter of respect as wrong, indignant and irrational is a declaration on the family itself. This is why you'll find those such as Richard Dawkins suggesting indoctrination could be considered a form of child abuse; aside from inhibiting the standards of critical thinking, it's a guiltful weight on the child's shoulders that they be considered a horrible person for merely doubting what they're told.
The culture of shame that can be found here could be traced partially to the heavy American influence on popular culture. In American media, good children and good families go to church. A proper child reads the Bible. The most honourable man in the city is the priest, and rejecting church should be punished.
I felt all of these things growing up, and I come from an upbringing completely devoid of religion. It simply wasn't mentioned. I am a case study for the result of personal religious choice without familial influence, and entirely on experiences in what is a heavily Christian culture.
A child does not have the worldly knowledge, political opinion or philosophical insight to understand the effect and placement of religion on society. In my case, for a long time I didn't even recognize the concept of religion. So to then have outside pressures from ideology dictate ethical behaviour with the justification of divine providence is entirely unfair to the child.
Should someone feel the need to call me an immoral, hateful person doomed to torture for not being apart of their club, I can handle that. But when that's subtly ingrained into the culture itself, it's not just the adults who are subject.
This is something I hadn't really evaluted until just a few weeks ago, so it's a new perspective for me. To that end, I add one last point that I do now have a further respect for those who were raised in a religious home to be able to stand for a principle regardless of the stigma and repercussions. To place an ideal before oneself is the epitomy of honour; so for those who have, you have my utmost respect.
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