I'll respond to to the things you've claimed that don't either rely on a subjective conclusion (whether decisions are interesting or not) or are comparisons (I asked you if you were capable of coming up with an argument as to why ES combat is bad without doing this, but apparently you aren't):
Map jumping: offers a guaranteed escape route from enemies too powerful for your current combat stats.
Flying: allows you to hover over enemies, rendering melee enemies useless; also allowing you to more easily avoid projectiles.
Both of the above constitute examples of creative use of the leveling system and spells being rewarded in combat.
So this is the beaten games thread right?
edgecrusher said:So this is the beaten games thread right?
Good luck convincing either of them.
Foolz said:I'll respond to to the things you've claimed that don't either rely on a subjective conclusion (whether decisions are interesting or not) or are comparisons (I asked you if you were capable of coming up with an argument as to why ES combat is bad without doing this, but apparently you aren't):
Ahem, why should Elder Scrolls combat be judged by a criteria that I wouldn't hold to any other form of combat much less melee combat.
Is the gameplay go here kill dude? Yes
Does said gameplay require me to use melee weapons a lot of the time? Depends on the build, but more often then not yes.
Ergo, I'm going to judge it on the things I would judge other action games. RPGs do not get a get out of good gameplay card from Gags.
Throw the comparison out of the equation. Melee combat hits on a basic level, on a primal "dur thing feel good when i hit it" level is lacking, while the attack animations themselves don't have you picking between what move you want to throw out for better results. Because of the nature of hitboxes/hurt boxes in Elder Scrolls being inconsistent or straight up jank, the concept of a whiff punish isn't exactly a thing the player really has to worry about. Your defensive options are limited.
Enemies lack more than 2 attack options as a standard across the board in that game, very few pairings in Elder Scrolls action has each enemy covering for the others weakness.
The game isn't Devil May Cry 3, which you should be playing.
Foolz said:
Map jumping: offers a guaranteed escape route from enemies too powerful for your current combat stats.
So it doesn't improve combat. It's get out of combat card with what for a trade off exactly? Which we established doesn't amount to an interesting decision for the following reason. You go in against higher level opponent you can't kill, and you either die or you warp out of there. Ceases to be a decision. Because it's that or bust. What makes it not interesting as a whole is because you could also avoid combat just running awya, but it's longer. The warp basically costs you nothing sans meter that governs the use of spells, which depending on your warp/inventory is a non factor. Certainly one by the mid point game.
Is it a particularly skillful thing to do? Not really, it's a fucking button press in a game where you can make yourself safe pretty quickly. Can't remember if it's an instant warp where you are safe during the animation entirely.
In Ninja Gaiden NES, lets say I am trying to get to the boss without fighting enemies. Why would I the player want to do that? Beyond just an emposed challenge, it could be because I want to keep a certain sub weapon I have as Ryu, and want to bring that specific item to the fight. Which means I need to work around these enemies without using it, which means the same platforming challenges with all their enemy pairings, placements, respawning, and spawning over pits that are built around jumps where I use a blade, I must now solve with minimal effort of my blade if any at all. It still maintains the core challenge of the game, even if I'm doing very little of using my attack animation. A more engaging sequence overall, the decision is between saying fuck it for a safer route to the boss (at the expense of me not having my ideal desired state by the time I get to the boss), or do something harder and potentially time consuming (you can get timed out in levels in NG Nes), but the reward is that boss is about to get fuckin rekt because I have my ideal condition (and even then you still gotta execute on the boss, because it's fucking Ninja Gaiden NES).
So I'm not looking at avoiding combat as something compelling or worth gassing up Elder Scrolls for. By the nature of 3D games, they kind of make this aspect of gameplay boring as shit. It's kind of why the bonfire to souls boss run in Souls games is trash. It adds nothing other than this annoyance that I gotta run my ass back around shit that isn't even a real threat to me anymore.
Foolz said:
Flying: allows you to hover over enemies, rendering melee enemies useless; also allowing you to more easily avoid projectiles.
Mildly fair point, okay it works as a different defensive option, especially over melee based enemies. What's my trade off? What's my reason to do anything else instead? Is it the most efficient thing to do when dealing with melee enemies? What can I be rewarded with for playing with some finesse versus a lower level player?
edgecrusher said:So this is the beaten games thread right?
Philip and Aarny have nothing on what Tomas n I have.
On topic: I beat The Turing Test. Its wack
Working on beating Fire Emblem: Three Houses. It's less wack, but not all that impressive. Simplifying the weapon triangle from a hard rock, paper, scissors to a soft one lets you get away with more things as a player. So you aren't punished as harshly for being aggressive with one powerful class, because they can probably survive the superior weapon now.
Additionally creating a set up that has you specking your characters out with multiple weapons n shit, lets you cover their weaknesses, which lets you eliminate your trade off.
That said, if you want the master unit, it still benefits you to pick their ideal strengths and go all in on that, which they limit to learning through this tedious putzing around a monastery shit or filling up a meter based on putzing around a monastery. It's needlessly tedious compared to how it used to be before. Where characters were a class, said class had its short comings, and through the battles you had bonus xp you could spend on characters at base before the next battle. Without having to just run around like a twit.
Way too many of the maps don't have you dealing with any sort of map hazard, turrain shift, or prop. For all the addition of battallions and shit like manned catapults n such, they get used very little.
Monsters suck. Straight up.
Edelgard is apologized for by people who don't want to admit they are weebs in love with a waifu. Dimitri's edgelord shtick is inane, and Claude n the Golden Shits are worthless to the story just like they are worthless to society.
Shamir is best waifu. Followed by Dorothea.
I don't mean you should hold it to different standards, I just thought some of the comparisons weren't very elucidating due to the massive difference in the mechanics, and that you should be capable of shitting on it based on its own mechanics, rather than it lacking the mechanics of other games; just as you wanted me to describe the very few positive aspects of the combat in some detail. You've done enough in your last post of that to satisfy me now, though (there's not that much more to say due to how limited it is mechanically).
Zeno Clash sort of dumbs down beat 'em up mechanics in first person without making them completely inadequate in a way that would probably make a much better ES combat system. Needs better AI and variety of enemy attacks to make it interesting for any length of time; two things massively lacking in Witcher 3, too.
Flying answers: The trade off is obviously you can't use any melee attacks or stealth, which was a big trade-off for me as I could one-hit backstab basically every enemy; so there's one good reason to do something else, and the limiting factor is obviously space: it doesn't work very well or not at all in many dungeons. However, if you can finesse the flying, then you can use it in cramped spaces to some degree. Personally I could only manage it consistently in the larger parts of the dungeons, and outside obviously.
Map addition: Map jumping isn't just for running away. If I remember correctly, you could actually jump from enemy to town for healing items then back to powerful enemy without them being auto-healed as they would have been if you'd fast travelled or walked back and forth lol.
And for the record, I think I hate Oblivion more than you hate Morrowind. I made the mistake of playing Oblivion as a character that was actually meant to fight things, and when I made a new character or re-statted them to fix this grave error, I found out they had drastically cut down on your ability to exploit their levelling system to do things like flying as a viable combat strategy. Plus the fucking oblivion gates. I'm now getting PTSD flashbacks.
edgecrusher said:So this is the beaten games thread right?
Um, the both of us have finished Morrowind and The Witcher 3; seems like this is the perfect place for such a discussion.
Gagan said:Sunshine, you haven't had anything even resembling a point of contention or an argument. Dismissing my write down of why the Witcher 3 at least has solid fundamentals as "box ticking" is an inane cop out so we can go to some "mah aesthetics' bullshit or "mah fun". None of that shit does anything for me. You can by all means argue The Witcher 3 combat is meh, boring, wack, whatever, considering I haven't called it good, ever, it goes without saying I'm not fond of it either. You can not argue however that positioning is a non factor in Witcher 3, I can do that with Elder Scrolls. You can not argue that the Witcher 3 doesn't have multiple defensive mechanics that serve their own niche, that the player picks n choose from in a given situation to extrapolate a better result versus a safer result as an option.
All I got told on what works about Elder Snore is "you use your imagination"........that doesn't mean anything. Describe the systems n decisions made available to the player, n how that rewards a more imaginative player.
Because you can definitely explain how Devil May Cry rewards an inventive player. You can explain Crysis in that way. You can explain The Phantom Pain in that way. Shit you can explain Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts that way.
Avoiding combat is not an interesting decision in a 3D game. It's an interesting thing to do in a 2d side scroller, because actually trying to dodge around enemies safely without getting hit is still a meaningful challenge. In 3D games where enemies are tethered to certain spaces, and you can run around enemies effortlessly to get by them. So no I'm not looking at "well the comabt isn't shit, because you can at least skip it".
"map jumping" how does that actually make the combat better
'flying" how does that make the combat better
And if the answer to that is "it doesn't" then point still stands Witcher 3 at least has better combat than Elder Snore, and both games ultimately come down to a whole lot of questing where its go here, kill shit. And if kill shit is worse in one and not the other, then one is better at killing shit than the other. Point blank.
You want to argue the overall gameplay is worse for pacing reasons? By all means.
But I aint taking an adjective at face value, going to need a more active description of the combat you seem dead set on apologizing for because it's one of your sacred cows against a game I think is okay at best and took me a whopping 3 years to actually finish because I kept getting bored of it. I didn't make you like a shitty game. I in fact, keep trying to help my friend Tomas Tower The Third by telling Tomas to try Devil May Cry 3. We aint even gonna get into the fact that your bum ass still hasn't played Ninja Gaiden Black or 2, and lord knows that means you're gonna play the Sigma games like a slob.
You are so focused on combat and mechanics, sometimes there are more to games than that. Yeah both games have a lot of go there kill shit but witcher 3 is pretty much exclusively that while TES I can do many otrher things like simple things liek SNEAK, or STEALTH KILL or rob people, or any other multitude of actions cause it is open to emergent gameplay where Witcher is not.
25. Mass Effect Andromeda
It only took me 3 years but I beat it! The open worlds filled with pointless icons got me last time and made me quit. This time I just did regular quests and tried not to get bogged down chasing icons on a map and it almost felt like a ME game. Combat is really fun but the lack of team squad control really takes away from what little strategy ME games had. Encounters out in the world get a bit repetitive once you find a power combo that works. The stength is still the characters and questing, I had all the loyalty missions to do so I focused on those. Some where really well done with that classic make a choice moment. I enjoyed all the squad members and their interactions with each other, Bioware is still the best at making a living party that feels like they learn to become a family.
The main story really lacks any reprocussions from choices, its nothing like the past ME games in that regard. That said it gets really exciting by the end and has a finale that would have been worthy of ME3 if ME3 had an actual ending. Epic space war stuff, a brand new beautiful planet with a huge war going on, every character coming together for one big fight. Its what you want from a finale. There is a good ME game some where in there. This game kind of got unfairly trashed, it's still pretty damn good.
Score: 7.8
Dvader said:You are so focused on combat and mechanics,
Except that's literally the thing we're discussing lol
Beyond that already stated my case that I care more if the emergent mechanics n options are genuinely good themselves, not that they just happen to be there. A game with shit stealth, shit combat, and shit movement, still ends up with shit gameplay. As far as giving me a pseudo action game with sneaking as a viable option pre mayhem, plenty of games do it substantially better; Crysis came out in 2007, Metal Gear Solid has been doing a version of it (tho leaning heavily stealth) since 98, Hitman's had it since its inception, and basically every open world game is a pseudo turd person shooter with some stealth, and some "emergent" nonsense. Shit's a buzzword. I attack the combat, because it's the closest thing to anything meaty the gameplay has going for it.
Foolz said:I don't mean you should hold it to different standards, I just thought some of the comparisons weren't very elucidating due to the massive difference in the mechanics, and that you should be capable of shitting on it based on its own mechanics, rather than it lacking the mechanics of other games; just as you wanted me to describe the very few positive aspects of the combat in some detail. You've done enough in your last post of that to satisfy me now, though (there's not that much more to say due to how limited it is mechanically).
Zeno Clash sort of dumbs down beat 'em up mechanics in first person without making them completely inadequate in a way that would probably make a much better ES combat system. Needs better AI and variety of enemy attacks to make it interesting for any length of time; two things massively lacking in Witcher 3, too.
Flying answers: The trade off is obviously you can't use any melee attacks or stealth, which was a big trade-off for me as I could one-hit backstab basically every enemy; so there's one good reason to do something else, and the limiting factor is obviously space: it doesn't work very well or not at all in many dungeons. However, if you can finesse the flying, then you can use it in cramped spaces to some degree. Personally I could only manage it consistently in the larger parts of the dungeons, and outside obviously.
Map addition: Map jumping isn't just for running away. If I remember correctly, you could actually jump from enemy to town for healing items then back to powerful enemy without them being auto-healed as they would have been if you'd fast travelled or walked back and forth lol.
And for the record, I think I hate Oblivion more than you hate Morrowind. I made the mistake of playing Oblivion as a character that was actually meant to fight things, and when I made a new character or re-statted them to fix this grave error, I found out they had drastically cut down on your ability to exploit their levelling system to do things like flying as a viable combat strategy. Plus the fucking oblivion gates. I'm now getting PTSD flashbacks.
Um, the both of us have finished Morrowind and The Witcher 3; seems like this is the perfect place for such a discussion.
I think Condemned had a good idea on how to do first person melee, would need to replay it to have more of a defined reason on what it actually does well. But I remember digging it, wasn't too into buying Zeno Clash so never played. Otherwise I like Chivalry n Mordau until, you know the dev outed themselves as shit heels. Having 3 separate slow swings that cover different ranges/motions, being able to feint them to cause a reaction n whiff punish, its a bit closer to a Dark Souls pvp but good, although still not good.
That's ridiculous because I hate Elder Scrolls in its entirity, it's just game to game trash. One of my go to examples of PC goons deserve the biggest side eye for being fake elitists. But sure Oblivion is probably worse as a game, I don't know, both are shit barrels. Tbf I also side eyed when the defense for them was GTA before GTA4, because my stance was "we're pretending there were good GTA games now? is that the lie we are going with?" lol
Gagan said:
I think Condemned had a good idea on how to do first person melee, would need to replay it to have more of a defined reason on what it actually does well. But I remember digging it, wasn't too into buying Zeno Clash so never played. Otherwise I like Chivalry n Mordau until, you know the dev outed themselves as shit heels. Having 3 separate slow swings that cover different ranges/motions, being able to feint them to cause a reaction n whiff punish, its a bit closer to a Dark Souls pvp but good, although still not good.
That's ridiculous because I hate Elder Scrolls in its entirity, it's just game to game trash. One of my go to examples of PC goons deserve the biggest side eye for being fake elitists. But sure Oblivion is probably worse as a game, I don't know, both are shit barrels. Tbf I also side eyed when the defense for them was GTA before GTA4, because my stance was "we're pretending there were good GTA games now? is that the lie we are going with?" lol
If my PC disc drive work, you'd have just talked me into playing Condemned before continuing Devil May Cry 3! 
Luckily it doesn't read discs anymore.
https://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/4720/?snr=1_7_15__13
2 isn't on steam? interesting, I would actually have to slum it on a console to replay it.
Gagan said:https://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/4720/?snr=1_7_15__13
2 isn't on steam? interesting, I would actually have to slum it on a console to replay it.
Shit, apparently I actually have it on Steam as well.
Sorry, Devil may Cry 3;I've got more important things to do!
Foolz said:Shit, apparently I actually have it on Steam as well.
Sorry, Devil may Cry 3;I've got more important things to do!
Bitch I will fucking nuke New Zealand myself you do that shit.
Gagan said:Bitch I will fucking nuke New Zealand myself you do that shit.
New Zealand being nuked sounds like a bonus to me (sorry Richard)!
Foolz said:New Zealand being nuked sounds like a bonus to me (sorry Richard)!
This is a nuclear-free zone and I shall have to ask you to turn your warheads away.
By Miu Watanabe.
Té_Rojo said:This is a nuclear-free zone and I shall have to ask you to turn your warheads away.
But we don't have any nuclear warheads, just the fallout from other countries' tests. It's about time New Zealand helped bear the burden!
Foolz said:But we don't have any nuclear warheads, just the fallout from other countries' tests. It's about time New Zealand helped bear the burden!
Australia: a glorified Marshall Islands.
By Miu Watanabe.
Tomb Raider 2 is done.
Still the best game in the series, & likely always will be. Gears of Uncharted Generic College Croft just can't compete with the original.
That’s a lot of finished games, hancuck. It looks like you are really interested in poker. Maybe you should branch out a bit.
Sunshine, you haven't had anything even resembling a point of contention or an argument. Dismissing my write down of why the Witcher 3 at least has solid fundamentals as "box ticking" is an inane cop out so we can go to some "mah aesthetics' bullshit or "mah fun". None of that shit does anything for me. You can by all means argue The Witcher 3 combat is meh, boring, wack, whatever, considering I haven't called it good, ever, it goes without saying I'm not fond of it either. You can not argue however that positioning is a non factor in Witcher 3, I can do that with Elder Scrolls. You can not argue that the Witcher 3 doesn't have multiple defensive mechanics that serve their own niche, that the player picks n choose from in a given situation to extrapolate a better result versus a safer result as an option.
All I got told on what works about Elder Snore is "you use your imagination"........that doesn't mean anything. Describe the systems n decisions made available to the player, n how that rewards a more imaginative player.
Because you can definitely explain how Devil May Cry rewards an inventive player. You can explain Crysis in that way. You can explain The Phantom Pain in that way. Shit you can explain Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts that way.
Avoiding combat is not an interesting decision in a 3D game. It's an interesting thing to do in a 2d side scroller, because actually trying to dodge around enemies safely without getting hit is still a meaningful challenge. In 3D games where enemies are tethered to certain spaces, and you can run around enemies effortlessly to get by them. So no I'm not looking at "well the comabt isn't shit, because you can at least skip it".
"map jumping" how does that actually make the combat better
'flying" how does that make the combat better
And if the answer to that is "it doesn't" then point still stands Witcher 3 at least has better combat than Elder Snore, and both games ultimately come down to a whole lot of questing where its go here, kill shit. And if kill shit is worse in one and not the other, then one is better at killing shit than the other. Point blank.
You want to argue the overall gameplay is worse for pacing reasons? By all means.
But I aint taking an adjective at face value, going to need a more active description of the combat you seem dead set on apologizing for because it's one of your sacred cows against a game I think is okay at best and took me a whopping 3 years to actually finish because I kept getting bored of it. I didn't make you like a shitty game. I in fact, keep trying to help my friend Tomas Tower The Third by telling Tomas to try Devil May Cry 3. We aint even gonna get into the fact that your bum ass still hasn't played Ninja Gaiden Black or 2, and lord knows that means you're gonna play the Sigma games like a slob.